Oppo, What Exactly Defines a "Muscle Car"??

"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390) 05/24/2014 at 17:37 • Filed to: America

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I've been arguing with my dad about this topic today and he won't concede that I'm right, But I won't concede that he's right either. Typical car people right here. :P

It started when we were talking about the new Hellcat Challenger; he told me that it's too big and as such it's a Muscle Car, fair enough. The he told me that Mustang's are Pony Cars, which I agreed with, but I said that V8 Mustangs are considered Muscle Cars, whereas V6 Stangs are Pony Cars, he said I was wrong, and to look up the definition of a Pony Car and Muscle Car, both of which I got from the Wikipedia.

Pony Car: "an American class of automobile launched and inspired by the Ford Mustang in 1964. [1][2] The term describes an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image.

Muscle Car: (Mind you, this is also from the Meriam-Webster Dictionary) "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving." !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! A large V8 engine is fitted in a 2-door,rear wheel drive, family-style mid-size or full-size car designed for four or more passengers. Sold at an affordable price, muscle cars are intended for mainly street use and occasional drag racing.

He calls bullshit and says that the new Mustangs and Camaros are Pony Cars, V6s or V8s; hell, he even called the GT500 a Pony Car! And I'm just sitting there like..

So tell me Oppo, who is right here? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but I want an outside oppinion on this.

(Also fun fact I just learned. My Dad's dad used to have a '63 Ford Galaxy Fastback! Wish we still had it..)

Blunion05 drives a pink S2000 (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:43

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Mustangs, Camaros, and Challengers are all muscle cars to me. These cars may have been pony cars when they came out, but not anymore.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:46

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Mustangs are pony cars. Muscle Cars are mid-sized 2-doors with v8's RWD and relatively light weight.

CAcoalminer > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:47

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I'd probably agree with you.

For Sweden > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:47

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Muscle cars are full-size cars.

Pony cars are mid-sizes and compacts.

Sn210 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:48

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I disagree with MW's definition, it's not just 2-doors

JR1 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:48

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I'd say all three cars are pure American muscle. V6 variants are pony cars.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 05/24/2014 at 17:49

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So does that mean that me, and a couple hundred Mustang owners that I've met are wrong then?? If that's the case, then why do people call them Muscle Cars?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Sn210 05/24/2014 at 17:50

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I agree with the Charger, Magnum, but not the 300...Not sure why.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:51

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Mid-sized or full-sized cars with a huge engine, I know it used to be a two door.. but I'm not sure if that's true anymore.. I'd say the MB E63 is modern muscle car, and the Audi RS6 as well..

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > For Sweden 05/24/2014 at 17:51

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Muscle Cars are mid-sized, see GM A body

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > CAcoalminer 05/24/2014 at 17:53

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I think you're the only one with me on this..

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:53

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You are right, IMHO. V6 sting is a pony car. V8 is a muscle car.

dogisbadob > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:53

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For me, a muscle car is a big engine in a small car, or a HUGE engine in any car

Isn't pony car a subset of muscle cars?

Your boy, BJR > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:54

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yup. The only mustang I'd make the exception for is the Boss 429. All the others? Pony. Just like the Hellcat and ZL1 are muscle cars, all the rest are pony

Soloburrito > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:54

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*troll mode engaged*

They're sport cars!

Sn210 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:55

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what would you classify it as? It's not a "super sedan" like the m5 or an AMG something or other. It's just an American full size sedan with a big ass V8 and RWD. Same thing goes for the Marauder.

For Sweden > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 05/24/2014 at 17:56

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implying B-bodies aren't muscle cars

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:56

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Because of Hollywood and Barret Jackson. Muscle Cars is a term invented later on after the cars were made. They were originally Supercars

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 17:56

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To me there isn't a black and white answer. I think some cars can easily be defined as both, they shouldn't have to be one or the other.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > dogisbadob 05/24/2014 at 17:58

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That's what I thought. At least in the modern world V6=Pony and V8=Muscle right?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Your boy, BJR 05/24/2014 at 17:58

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So a Boss 302 and a Mach 1 are Pony Cars.....

I need more explanation.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Sn210 05/24/2014 at 18:00

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American Full-Size Luxury with big ass V8?

Grandy O'Smith > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:00

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To me, a "Pony Car" refers to the body style, - i.e Mustang / Camaro / Challenger etc.

A "Muscle car" is more of a sleeper, being a family type vehicle not intended originally as a performance car, with a big engine stuffed into it, - i.e GTO, Road-Runner, Torino etc.

desertdog5051 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:00

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Muscle cars can be the same model as Pony cars except that they have big HP. That moves them into the category. I am not sure if the Pony car even exists anymore.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > For Sweden 05/24/2014 at 18:01

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Muscle Car

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Sn210 05/24/2014 at 18:02

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I'd say that's a musle car, I also see the AMG E and S series as Muscle cars.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:03

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Size of the motor and what they were designed to do.

For Sweden > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 05/24/2014 at 18:04

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Muscle Car

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 05/24/2014 at 18:04

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You're definitely right about that.

I think a Mustang or Camaro can be both but there needs to be a definitive line where it is either one or the other.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 05/24/2014 at 18:05

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So what were the 302 and Mach 1 designed for then?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > For Sweden 05/24/2014 at 18:06

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Full Size/Luxury car.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > desertdog5051 05/24/2014 at 18:07

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I say if it's a V6, 300hp+ or not, it's a Pony Car. I guess it's all down to cylinder count and HP numbers.

GhostZ > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:07

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I consider the term to emerge from the combination of several technical differences between everything we consider a "muscle car" and everything that isn't, based on how those mechanical parts affect the "experience" of driving it, from how it launches to how it crashes.

This is what makes up that technical distinction of a muscle car:

1. Live axle rear suspension, usually with a locking differential (independent suspension or open differentials have a significant impact on the sensation of "muscle" when coming off the line)

2. Sedan/full sized-based frame and body, with only 2 doors. This is the distinction between a muscle car (Charger, Torino, Chevelle) vs a Pony Car (Challenger, Camaro, Mustang) whic his based off of a compact/2-door platform.

3. OHV V8 with a cross-plane crankshaft and dual exhaust (This is what gives the exhaust that particular burble, due to the firing timing on the left and right sides)

4. Ft/lbs to HP ratio close to 1:1

5. Body panels not shared with any other car ("distinctive" look) even if the chassis is.

So looking that, we see:

Pony car: All Mustangs, All Camaros, 1970-1974 Challenger, Thunderbird, Firebird, Cougar (all are based on compact frames with

Muscle Car: Torino, Chevelle SS, 2008+ Challenger (based on the Charger!) pre-1970 Chrysler 300 Letter Series (not the new one, which is a 4-door)

Some interesting notes:

1. The newest Challenger is based on the sedan LX platform, which makes it look closer in size to a large sedan than a coupe, unlike the original 1970 Challenger. It also had rear suspension on the SRT8 models, but not in the R/T. This means that the 2008+ R/T is closer to a "Muscle Car" than the SRT8.

2. While the 300 letter series is very much a muscle car, the current 300C is both a 4-door and has rear independent (multi-link) suspension, making it very much not a muscle car.

3. The current Mustang, on the D2C platform, is not a muscle car because of its unique compact frame. HOWEVER, if rumors of a Lincoln sedan based on the mustang comes out, it may be the closest thing to a Muscle car in today's era. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) it's losing the rear independent suspension too.

4. The Current Camaro, if it had a live axle suspension, ALSO comes close to being a muscle car, since it's based on the 4-door Zeta platform.

5. If you drop the "live axle rear suspension" designation that separates a lot of sports cars from muscle cars, the newest Camaro and Challenger, which are still full-sized car based and not compact-car based like they used to be, suddenly become Muscle cars and not Pony Cars.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Blunion05 drives a pink S2000 (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) 05/24/2014 at 18:07

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Exactly what I'm thinking!

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:08

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The Boss 302 was designed for Trans Am racing.

The Mach 1 was a trim level.

GhostZ > Blunion05 drives a pink S2000 (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) 05/24/2014 at 18:08

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I pointed this out in my comment, but I think it has mostly to do with being based on a sedan platform. The original Camaros (before 5th gen) and Challenger were based on 2-door sport compact platforms, whereas the new ones are based on Sedans (Zeta and LX platforms, respectively)

For Sweden > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 05/24/2014 at 18:09

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Late '60s Impala Coupe

Luxury

Not a Muscle Car

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > GhostZ 05/24/2014 at 18:10

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So that means that there'll be a very distinctive designation between the new '15 Stangs and the '14-older ones? But the Mustang just isn't a Muscle Car period?

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:11

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Aesthetics = pony. Performance = muscle.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > For Sweden 05/24/2014 at 18:18

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1964 SS 409 with a 4-speed maybe, but still too large.

Late 60's Impala's are huge.

The Impala has been Chevy's "Luxury car" since 1958.

GhostZ > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:18

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Yes and Yes. By all accepted definitions, the 2015+ Mustang would be considered a sports car, since it has both a unique, 2-door chassis, light weight, and independent suspension. The only thing that keeps the Camaro and Challenger (who both already have rear independent suspension) from that designation is the sedan-based platform and heavier weight.

"Muscle cars" refers to those technical components back in the 70s, no other cars had those qualities all together.

Nowadays, "Muscle car" refers to those cars that the original term referred to . It's sort of like everyone forgetting the original reason why the word was created, and instead just pointing at it's original uses to define its current uses. Sort of a "Well, the Mustang is close enough so might as well just call it a Muscle Car. "

If a company made a serious muscle car, driving it would make it very obvious how different it would be from the current crop of 'muscle' cars.

Your boy, BJR > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:20

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they aren't full or mid size and they don't have at least a 6L motor

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > GhostZ 05/24/2014 at 18:20

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Everything I know about Muscle Cars is a lie!! :(

For Sweden > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 05/24/2014 at 18:20

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Muscle Car

Huge

Pretending like these things aren't related

GhostZ > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:21

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To put it in more perspective, a 2015+ mustang has more in common with a Jaguar E-type than it does a 1965 Mustang. Likewise, a 2008+ Challenger or camaro has more in common with a 70s 2-door luxury sedan than it does with a 1970 challenger. Neither of them share very much mechanically with a Torino, Charger, or Chevelle, which were all very, very similar mechanically.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > GhostZ 05/24/2014 at 18:22

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There's much more to this topic than I ever thought; very touchy subject this seems to be..

GhostZ > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:24

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I think the biggest kept secret of American cars is that our grocery-getters shared more with original Nascar racers (larger engines, sedan bodies, live axle rear) than the Camaro, Challenger, or Mustang did. One reason they sold so well was because they let people have those benefits without being large, expensive, or difficult to drive. Mustangs and Camaros were originally marketed toward women who needed an easy, cheap, stylish car to drive. It wasn't until later that they were marketed toward men.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > For Sweden 05/24/2014 at 18:25

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The Chargers are smaller than Impalas of that era.

GhostZ > Soloburrito 05/24/2014 at 18:25

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As I said in another comment, with independent rear suspension, greatly improved aerodynamics, a 2-door bespoke compact platform, and other technical distinctions, the 2015+ Mustang is closer to an E-Type than it is a 1965 Mustang.

desertdog5051 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:27

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This quote sums things up in my mind. Sporty, smaller, cars. Not necessarily any great HP.

"When Lee Iacoca brought his Fairlane Committee together in 1962 to explore the possibilities of a new kind of car for young, forward-thinking families, no one could have predicted quite how successful this car would eventually be. Finding a styling void in the swiftly growing baby boomer market, Ford hit a marketing bullseye with the Mustang—a four-seat, sporty "pony car" perfect for the times. In the first two years of its production, more than a million Mustangs were built—redefining the Ford brand and becoming the company's most popular car since the Model T".

So the Pony car really has nothing to do with performance. It was coined after the Mustang came out and was generically attached to a lot of different cars. Think Barracuda.

GhostZ > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:27

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At the end of the day, I would still keep my mouth quiet about why modern "muscle" cars aren't very mechanically like their predecessors, because the people who tend to drive them take this sort of stuff very seriously. The day it became an insult to say that a car isn't a muscle car meant that no matter how you justify it, you're gonna get some hate for it. Thankfully, Oppo is a very hate-free utopia.

Blondude > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:28

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Dodge:

Charger - muscle car

Challenger - pony car

Chevy:

Chevelle - muscle car

Camaro - pony car

Ford:

Torino - muscle car

Mustang - pony car (although you could argue the late first gens are muscle cars because they got massive)

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > GhostZ 05/24/2014 at 18:30

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Yay utopia! :)

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > desertdog5051 05/24/2014 at 18:32

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Mmmm, fish...Er, I mean 440 7.2L V8! :P

I understand.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Blondude 05/24/2014 at 18:35

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That's why I love the late 1st gen. Stangs!

lone_liberal > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:36

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Obviously there are a lot of opinions. To me pony cars are 2+2, meaning small almost unusable rear seats, while muscle cars are larger and can seat 5 or 6. Really, though, "pony car" isn't really used any more and everything with a big powerful V8 is called a muscle car.

desertdog5051 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:42

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The original Barracuda came with a slant 6 or a 273 V8. It was basically a "Pony Car". It was slightly ahead of the Mustang so it was not called a Pony Car. Hardly a performance car that it would turn into.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > desertdog5051 05/24/2014 at 18:46

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Interesting, when did it switch to performance?

desertdog5051 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 18:59

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'67 was when the 383 with a 4 barrel was first offered. In 68 they got serious and offered the 340 4 barrel and from there it got better and better.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > desertdog5051 05/24/2014 at 19:18

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Now what is it exactly when someone mentions two or four-barrel?

Tony Dickson > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 19:46

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Carburettor or carburetter depending on which side of the Atlantic you are.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Tony Dickson 05/24/2014 at 19:49

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What do they do?

desertdog5051 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 19:51

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The numbers of openings/venturi's in the carb to let air and fuel pass through to the engine. The more area you have for air to pass, the more HP you can make. Usually accompanied by a more aggressive camshaft.

4 barrel.

2 barrel

Tony Dickson > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 19:53

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Before there was fuel injection, they mixed the fuel and air. They're rather fascinating, it's all done with gravity and aerodynamic forces, no electronics involved.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question377.ht…

Tom McParland > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 20:17

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I'm pretty sure they are Lambos bro.

desertdog5051 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 20:19

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The number of barrels or venturi's a carb has. Larger area allows more air to flow into the engine. This increases potential HP. Usually accompanied by a more aggressive camshaft.

4 barrel

2 barrel

desertdog5051 > Tony Dickson 05/24/2014 at 20:20

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On the west side of the pond, we only use 1 'T"

Tony Dickson > desertdog5051 05/24/2014 at 20:22

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Blasted thing wouldn't let me edit... grrr.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 20:41

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Old school Mustangs were Pony cars because they weren't full-sized, or even mid-sized cars, they were compact class cars, with small block engines as the biggest factory option.

GTO and others that started shoving big-blocks into mid-sized cars, and other high-horsepower big-block full-size class cars, were considered Muscle cars.

The opposite philosophy of a Sports Car that focused on light weight, and adequate horsepower for that size.

Muscle cars started as mid-size or full size cars, and packed as much power as the biggest engines in the lineup could produce, with little focus on the consequences of that weight, and hence were singularly good at going as fast as possible, in a straight line.

by 68-69, Mustang, started growing a bit. (Camaro actually shrunk for '70 in it's second generation, though) and Challenger/Barracuda started off as larger cars than the original Mustang, and they all started offering big-block engines as they grew toward mid-sized proportions, rather than compact. One could argue that they started encroaching as muscle cars, but most people still reserved that term for larger cars with established muscle-car nameplates.

Mid-70s and 80s cars shrunk with the gas crisis, and malaise era, and the Muscle car monicker was mostly left to classic cars.

The retro-theme happened in the late-90s and early 2000s, as coupes recovered a bit from being clobbered by SUV sales. Especially with the S197 Mustang, and the re-birth of the Camaro Zeta-chassis car, and the LY Challenger, and a new horsepower war, Muscle Cars came back into the present.

I say the new Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger are muscle cars for several reasons.

1: they are mid-sized cars. Compact cars are now FWD transverse chassis cars.

2: they come with V8 engines varying in size, but with as much power as any other. They are not handicapped below other cars with more horsepower.

3: there aren't any bigger coupes than these. These cars weigh 3500-4000+lbs curb weight, they aren't "ponies" anymore, they are full-grown horses. Anything larger than this, now has 4 doors, like Charger, Chevy SS, and Taurus SHO. There is no other Chevelle, Coronet/GTX, or Torino/Galaxie500 full size coupes with bigger engines to defer the Muscle Car nameplate to.

While I can see why people keep the "pony" car name as a tradition, and the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger all started off in that segment, they are now fully grown, and full-power, and there is no bigger brother anymore... they ARE the new Muscle cars.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 20:48

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Boss 302 was Trans Am racing homologation of the high-output 302 engine. It was a track racer, sold for the street due to the production rules of Trans Am series racing.

Mach-1 was basically a full-boat option loaded GT, and somewhat replaced the GT moniker for 1969-73. Not all Mach 1 cars had big blocks, and big-blocks had just started to be offered in the consecutively larger 67-68, and then 69-70, and 71-73 cars, which arguably are more mid-sized than the compact Falcon-like 64.5-66 cars that only had small-blocks from the factory.

wiffleballtony > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 21:11

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To me its any two door, front engine, RWD, V8 made in America (or Australia). While the term Pony car and Muscle car may have held meaning in the past, there aren't enough examples in current production to make a differentiation. Hence, they're all muscle cars.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/24/2014 at 21:23

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Ford galaxie 500 with the 428: Muscle car

Dodge/Chrysler Super stocks: Muscle cars

Chevy chevelle SS: muscle car

Mustang/Camaro: Pony car

Sn210 > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 05/24/2014 at 22:18

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yeah definitely. Big cars with big V8's with big power, they're big and "muscular"

Prophet of hoon > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/25/2014 at 03:18

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wow you have too much time on your hands.... the mustang is a pony car because... drum roll please, it's named after a horse. Of course, we call them pony cars because they're like little dogs - dog in shape, but not in reality. Any other non-horse-named-car is not a horse by any other name.

Axial > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/25/2014 at 09:34

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Some pony cars are also muscle cars, but not all muscle cars are pony cars.

Personally, I think a muscle car is any 2+2+n (n >= 0) coupe with a high-output, "uncivilized" engine. If your V6 Mustang has been 'roided up to be loud and shoot 400+ HP fire out the back, congratulations! It's a muscle car. If it's that overly quiet, somewhat anaemic 300 HP lawnmower, it's just a pony car.

Being able to handle corners has absolutely nothing to do with being either a pony or a muscle car...which is why I roll my eyes whenever that's brought up regarding the Challenger. :p

un-hipster > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/25/2014 at 11:33

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Like a lot of subjective terms, what one thinks is a muscle car vs pony car/sports car really depends on what era you grew up in. The young tuner crowd of today was born long after the golden age of the pony car ( the first one , see how it works?), so they have a tendency to ascribe pony car status on different cars than boomers do.

theburnerformerlyknowasthestigfarmer > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 05/25/2014 at 12:17

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A muscle car is a big, heavy, comfortable car which produces exceptional performance through sheer brute force.

AMGs are muscle cars. The Falcon and Commodore are muscle cars. Jags are muscle cars. Heck, the GT-R is a Japanese muscle car.

This is probably going to ruffle a few feathers from traditionalists saying "HURR NO V8 NOT RWD DUUHH". To which I say